Episode 8
The Works of Sarah J. Maas Part I
Listen in as Jenn and Mistie unpack the complex worlds created by Sarah J. Maas, starting with the latest buzz in her Crescent City series. This episode isn't just a fan's paradise; it's a candid critique where we don't shy away from talking about the parts of Maas's work that we all hate to love and love to hate.
Content Highlights:
- Candid thoughts & speculation
- Comparison of characters a crossed books
- Shocking - Jenn asking Mistie for a Characters name
Transcript
If you spend so long trapped in darkness, you find that the darkness begins to stare back. Hello, listeners, we have Jenn and I here this morning doing something a little bit different. We are here today to talk about the works of Sarah J Maas. Yeah, all of them, all of them, all of them Throne of Glass, Court of Thorn and Roses and Crescent City. So if you have not read all of them, beware Spoilers.
::Yeah.
::Because we're not holding anything back.
::No.
::So, in usual fashion, no prep work necessary. Are we working forwards to backwards or backwards to forwards? Or just randomly.
::I think we'll probably bounce around a lot, but I feel like it makes sense to start with House of Flame and Shadow, since that's the newest release, and that's the newest like that's the most.
::Current series.
::Thank you.
::This is why we're friends. I knew what that meant. That signal.
::Yeah.
::So go.
::No, yeah, so go no, so you're the one that just like read all three books in like five days or whatever. It was you crazy person. I'm really sad I didn't reread crescent city 1 and 2 before House of Flame and Shadow, but that's okay.
::I don't feel like it was needed, to be honest.
::I mean no, not really. I mean I don't feel like you had to reread them either. There was so much info dumping in the first, like Third Of Flame and shadow, that it's just like oh, oh, oh oh. I felt like I kept getting bitch slapped with information. So I'm going to let you kind of Start. You just want people to hate me. I'm going to let you kind of start. You just want people to hate me.
::I'm going to get all the hate mail, okay Okay, can we first give our history about when we first read these? I think that might help, sure, okay so first time through Crescent City.
This is my first time through Crescent City, but I'm talking about all of Sarah J Maas' work. So the only reason why I read Sarah J Maas was because of the book club that we're in and we had a challenge of pick a series that you want the group to read, and everybody would read the series. So we first read ACOTAR in the fall and then in the spring we read Throne of Glass. So that's that's the reason why we read it. I've never had any desire to read it. It was never on my list, like I knew who she was from, like signings and stuff. So don't hate me, audience. I thought that crescent city was a waste of space. I think the first book was the best because it was like a mystery thriller. Every time you guys talked about it you, I'm not saying like you, you, but like the book club every time I brought it up just the things that they were saying never made me want to read it. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is going to be trash. Why do we even care? Whatever, which is why I was really hard pressed not to read it. Why? But you're my bestie and you want me to read it, so I will get to it eventually, I just don't know when.
Book one was great. I've loved everything about it, like I, the world, you know the first, like you said about the first hundred pages, like the first quarter of it. You know Sarah J Maas is building this world, so I'm not gonna. I did some skimming because some of the stuff I just didn't care about, and of course it did it. It wasn't needed for any of the other two books to know, so that didn't hurt. But once we got past that, like I loved their banter, I loved them working together, I loved, you know, loved going to all these places and meeting all these people. I don't know, book one was great. I loved it, absolutely loved it. Book two I think the only reason why I liked book two was it was a continuation of Bryce and Hunt.
::Yeah.
::That's the only thing I cared about in book two. I didn't care about anything else, not a single thing. Book three could have been book two. That this series there's no reason for it to be three books, because half of book two and half of book three is nonsense has nothing to do with the overall story. She's got all these characters that she's got running around. I mean, I know you're trying to probably probably build a foundation for a spinoff series, but for bryson hunt it was unnecessary. I didn't care. I didn't care about ethan I'm assuming that's how you say his name the I dude connor's brother, theron the mermaid. I didn't give two rats ass about their storyline yeah didn't care.
And the reason why I'm saying all this is because if you pulled their stories out, it didn't affect bryce and hunt's story to you know. Stop the hysteria people, or whatever their names, are like yeah the only difference that it makes is ethan had the, the bullet for the gun.
That was it yeah I mean Tharion, you probably needed his, whatever his name is. Merman needed him to do the queen to get the people to safety. But other than that, if you pulled all of that other extra nonsense out, you still have the story for Bryce Hunt. And Ithan's storyline just pissed me off. He was a whiny little bitch and I don't. Yeah, yeah, I gotta fix it. I gotta fix it. Make your brother proud, make your brother proud. I don't give a snap shit. Whatever, we'll see how I feel when his book comes out. Do we know which character she's doing next?
::uh, the next book is going to be in the ACOTAR world world, but we don't have any confirmation on who that book is about, or who the net, or who, like the spinoff of crescent city, is going to be about okay, I mean I figured it's going to be either Ithan or Merman. Yeah, Theron or Tarion, I don't know. I don't really know how to say his name either.
::Yeah. To be honest, but yeah, I yeah, Crescent City is my favorite.
::The first one, and I loved that it didn't end on a cliffhanger, like that was the best part.
::Yeah, book two's cliffhanger. You saw my message. I was like what the fuck?
I'm pretty sure that's what I put for my review because listen everyone where I lose my mind I have everybody said you had to make sure the akatar was read before book three, so I knew something was coming in book three. I didn't expect it to be at the end of book two and then to have to wait for however long you waited. Absolutely not, absolutely not. I was dying and I think she only did that for effect to push cells for book three because he did not want to make an appearance in book three.
::It's Nesta and Azriel and Cassian Azriel, whatever shadow boy, no resanRhysand shows up and um his shadows no, in the first couple of scenes he shows up when they put her in the dungeon and then when she escapes the dungeon. That's when he leaves like that's when you don't see him again are we sure?
::I remember being very upset that he wasn't in book three.
::Okay, no, he is, he's in hold on, I'll just look it up maybe the conversation at the table.
::I thought that happened at the end of book two. I'm like this is what happens when you read these books back to back over Spain in a couple of days yeah everything becomes blurry and mesh. I remember them talking at the table and they give her the magic language bean.
::Okay, I think you're right yeah, I'm pretty sure that all happens in like the first 20 pages okay, okay of crescent city 3 and then never comes again. So you know it was yeah, and then you never see him again you only see nesta and azrael it was a ploy like for a second it's very clever, very clever but here's what I loved about that setup. I am really hoping I don't think I'm right, but I'm really hoping we actually get another and you're not going to like this which is fine. Nessian book.
::It did seem that way.
::It really seemed that way. It really seemed that way, like it really seemed like she was setting up Nesta to go on like this next journey. And I would love, because we saw so much of Nesta's like trauma and her healing and she, you know, she had her Valkyries and Emery and Gwen like made it to the summit and she didn't. So I would love to see like a warrior story with Nesta in the next ACOTAR book like where you get a healed version of of her that like basically just goes and fucks people up.
::I like that idea.
::You know, like it really felt that way and I think, if that's what this next book ends up being, I think we'll see more of Ember and Randall's interactions with the inner circle, because Ember and Nesta clearly had some kind of deep conversation about Nesta's journey and I think that that is a continuation of Nesta's healing process, because so much of her trauma growing up was having to be this like perfect child that her mother groomed, only to basically be abandoned by her mother and then her father yeah, as long as there's no fucking staircases, I'll be happy to read it no, no, it's going to open with her going down the staircase.
::Oh, my fucking God, I'm telling you, Jenn, if it opens with her going down the staircases, I'm not fucking reading it. Okay, I'm not doing it.
::I think the staircases have haunted your sleep more than the letters and rich people. Oh, my gosh, gosh, that that was really the only thing that I truly, truly enjoyed coming out of like the mixing of the worlds. Otherwise, the like journey through the tunnel cave system in Prithian felt like the staircases to me. I was like here's another tunnel, here's another cave, here's another tunnel, here's another cave, there's some more art. But I did like how SJM wrote it, with Bryce trying to, I mean, and really succeeding, but like outsmart, or at least get away from Azriel and Nesta, you know, because as much as we love those characters, she does not know them. And for her to be as standoffish from the fey in her own world, for her to like immediately sign on with, like an you know, some type of ally ship with with them, I mean really would have been out of character for her. So I SJM did did a really good job of narrating that yeah.
And I love that we got so much of Azriel in that book Like I think that's the most she's ever spoken, mm-hmm Ever. I was like aw, look at little Azzy boy.
::He's so cute I didn't care one way for another for the crossover, yeah. The only way it's going to matter is if she does it again in the future when there's not a dire situation.
::I think that's the only I think you'll see it again. She's already come out and said that Throne of Glass is probably going to continue. I'm sure we'll see a crossover there too.
::We've because we've already seen it with in throne of glass. It was just more like an easter egg and less like a full crossover I mean you're talking about the angel that was flying when she was running through the realms that easter.
::Yeah, where resand, like slows down her descent just enough yeah, but do we know that was Rhysand? I just thought we knew it was somebody from that world yeah, no, we're pretty sure, because the timeline fits, that it would be Rhysand, because, uh, feyre would have been pregnant at that time and it says this the most handsome male she'd ever seen, or something like that, with a very pregnant female okay, I don't remember that part something, something to that effect.
I might have the exact wording incorrect, but but you're, it's pretty much confirmed that it's Reese and Feyre oh okay, I love throwing a glass I so okay for House of Flame and Shadow as far as, like, there was so much of the book that I really enjoyed, but, like, I feel like who stole the show of Flame and Shadow was Ruhn and Lidia?
::oh, of course, absolutely. That's besides Bries and Hunt. That's all I cared about yeah, I mean I was.
::I was pretty sick of Ithan's, Ithan's storyline too, he, he, and I mean the entire series. He has been a bit whiny and I was really hoping that he would like step into this alpha role and make all of the changes that he was so desperately hoping the Sigrid Sigrid air would do, and it almost felt like SJM set it up where Ithan and Sigrid I think I might be saying that wrong were mates and in somewhere along the way that changed and she didn't couldn't figure out another way to kill her off or like get rid of her than how she did it, that whole storyline, I agree, felt very messy, especially for SJM, because she did like the easter eggs for Ithan's story and I was like, oh okay, so you know, this is his mate, he saved her.
::They'll like go through their own thing and it's like, oh huh, wasn't expecting that yeah, I almost felt like if she decided to change her mind, she should have just took that out of the story altogether.
::I would have saved us a couple hundred pages yeah, and then Tharion, Tharion, like god bless that child. I just I was super excited to like see him stand up to the river queen for once and like stand his ground because hello. But I just I feel like him and Ithan both acted like 16 year old boys going through puberty.
::They were really immature and making stupid decisions, where in the first book that's not how they came across Merman came across very capable, smart, you know, using his charm as a defense mechanism. Because of his sister and Ithan, you got the assumption that he was a badass within the pack because he took his brother's position. So why is it all of a sudden, when you're not with the pack, all of a sudden you're a whiny, immature piece of shit?
::Oh, and did you know that he? Did you know that he was a captain of the sunball team?
::yeah, like why the fuck do we need to know that?
::like 20 million times I want to know how many times that was ready audience if you're reading crescent city the series.
::Every time you hear that take a shot, take a shot, it's a new drinking game. Yeah, yeah, that was really annoying. That doesn't mean that doesn't define who you are or your character or your strength, because you played fucking baseball.
::Yeah, I definitely feel like the strongest storyline was Ruhn and Lidia. I loved them so much Like I spent so much time crying over them. It was so bad but but I would love a Ruhn and Lidia book. It's not going to happen, at least not anytime soon, but would love a book from them. One of the things that bugged me was I feel like SJM wrote Bryce and Hunt so well and they were so well matched in book one and two and then they had like no chemistry in book three at all.
::I agree.
::And Bryce was kind of a see you next Tuesday to him.
::Okay. So you know how you feel. Like whatever her name is and throwing a glass didn't speak to her mate Bryce didn't share a motherfucking thing with Hunt at all, nothing. She was making decisions without him doing all these things and hunts just like. Well, she didn't share that with me, but I'm just gonna trust her. So I just want to throw that little caveat in there that she is horrible.
::At least my girl was like I'm gonna go write some letters, okay, I'm just saying I just, I don't disagree with that, but I feel like Bryce wasn't sharing with him because he was so disconnected from the mission as a whole, but she also like they just didn't sit down and like communicate about what was happening, like the trauma that he experienced and like the trauma she experienced, and like figuring things out together in this journey, like they just stayed mad at each other the entire time but all they wanted to do when they were separated was get back to each other. I'm like what is happening? I can't. I can't stand this. That that really, really bothered me because for all of Ruhn and Lidia's like trauma and issues and having to figure things out on the go, they communicated. Like once they started talking, they were both very open, very vulnerable with each other. Their chemistry was off the chart, the whole freaking series this couple's about. Like they're barely talking to each other.
::They don't really do a lot of things together either. No, I feel like there's a lot of separation and doing things on their own.
::Yeah, okay, we have to talk about the hand scene yeah, like okay.
::Actually, before we drop to the hand scene, the hellhound just disappears off the page. You notice that right after they get free, he just like disappears. Nothing else happens to him. He's helping somebody with the armies and that's it. He's gone didn't notice and then at one point at the very end, the very, very end, brax whatever his name is is like he doesn't want to guard the thingy, no more he's getting irritated yeah I can't handle this anymore.
Y'all come get to avalon, because I am done with these people so from when they get rescued from the basement he's gone until the very end where he's like I don't want to guard no more yeah, he's gone because he's a.
::He's at avalon. They wanted him there to protect the island and the citizens and help them transition with the crazy castle crumbling and all of that.
::I don't understand why Fury couldn't do that, because she was a badass bitch all in herself, but whatever.
::People were terrified of her.
::He's not any better. He's the hellhound or bloodhound or whatever. He's a hound. Yeah the hellhound or bloodhound or like whatever, he's a hound yeah. But yeah, the hand thing. I didn't understand why that was necessary. I don't get it. I didn't he was cutting off his hand so he could get closer to something. But how are you going to get closer to something if your hand is chopped off? You just lost like four inches of distance, inches of distance, nothing.
::He was using his other hand and his other hand was holding him back right.
::I don't know whichever hand is stuck, you still lose four inches, so you have shorter distance. Yeah, I don't know I didn't understand. If anybody understands it, please explain it to me, because I don't.
::But what cracked me up about this scene is I was laughing. I sent a screenshot to my friend, kenzie. I was like I'm laughing so hard and I have it highlighted I'm not biting off your fucking hand. Hunt managed to say and I think Backseeing comes back and is like I thought you were a badass and Hunt's like a badass, not a cannibal.
::Yeah, that was great.
::I was rolling until I realized they weren't kidding.
::Yeah.
::And were actually biting off Ruhn's hand. I was like, okay, that was funny 20 seconds ago, it's not funny anymore.
::Does that count as accidental cannibalism? Accidental?
::SJM needs to borrow some of Brynne Weaver's triggers.
::Oh.
::God, I mean, really, does it count? I mean he's spitting it, I don't know.
::We're not going to count that I mean how much of that is he actually getting out of his mouth if he's like nom nom?
::nom nom. Just saying I can't.
::There's going to be microscopic pieces of human flesh, or fey flesh, in his mouth listen, the boy needs a toothpick and a good therapist okay, so let's just talk about how much danica is a shit fucking friend. Just throwing that out there. You cannot be friends with somebody for all this time. You don't tell them you have a mate, you don't? You don't tell them any of these things.
::Like piece of shit, friend yeah, yeah, yeah, I yeah, I mean I don't, I don't disagree at all. I mean she, she obviously didn't share anything with bryce, and maybe she was planning to and got cut off before she could, or she was hoping to get all the pieces together, you know, before she shared it with anybody. But doesn't the elder wolf I can't remember his like the prime the prime Thank you. Doesn't he even say at some point that Danica had shared something about, like Danica had shared concerns with him, or something?
::He tells Bryce that she was doing some history on the line and trying to figure out why certain wolves weren't talked about anymore and that was leading up to the hidden error. Yeah so like, but that's was leading up to the hidden error yeah, so like, but that's wolf business.
::Yeah, I, I just I don't know. I really struggled with with that, with that relationship and all of the different revelations you know bryce has throughout the series that danica had knowledge of or was working on or or whatever that said, when we get a glimpse of like afterlife or whatever you want to call it at the end, as Bryce is being pulled back and you see the pack of devils and Lahaba.
::I know Lulu or Lily lover.
::Sobbing Like I was hysterical.
::Oh.
::I was a wreck. And when? Oh gosh, what's her name? Oh, fiddlesticks.
::Which character?
::The woman that Hunt like fought beside, was in love with saw a guy, salahandre Solomon, solomon, I don't know.
::It was an S, s-a-n-d-r-l-y or something like that. I know I'm the worst person to ask about the names.
::I don't know why I asked Mistie for the name, because I'm going to get something that's very, very wrong.
::Hoobity-be-be-ba-ba-boo, that's her name. It's like S-A-N-D-R-L-Y Shahar. Okay, then maybe that was her sister Sahara yeah.
::Yeah sure, yeah sure. But when shahar shows up in the in the mech suit lost it, lost it it's just like again sobbing oh yeah, that that whole, like that whole sequence of events where you have like shahar helping hunt and then you have atis and apollyon yeah, that's his name like, like holding open the portal to get bryce and Hunt back. I was just like it was bad.
::Yeah.
::The other storyline that I loved that came out of Crescent City 3 was Jessabas.
::I'm confused about her character, like I don't understand why she's like everybody else hates her, but like she does whatever bryce wants and like, makes all these deals with bryce, I guess because bryce became an unofficial priestess and didn't know that she was a priestess.
::huh, exactly that's how I felt no, I think I think joseba, or jessima, I think she. I mean, she's been there since the beginning of all of this and I think she had an inkling, or maybe she even knew, that bryce was going to be the one, like the fates had chosen to defeat the asteri. So I think jessica just basically made it possible, in ways that she could, to put her on that path.
::Oh, okay.
::That's kind of where I landed with it, yeah. But, her and Bryce's conversation, just the whole time I just cried, the whole time.
::Yeah, I don't think I cried at all.
::I don't remember crying in book two, but when we lost lahaba and then when bryce did the drop in book one, like the lighted up danica, I couldn't hear that sound on tikt TikTok without crying. I don't think there was any emotional scenes, but I'm also really cold-hearted.
::Okay, we know again light and fluffy, dark and twisted. Dark and twisted. Lele's death was really sad. I was very sad for that, yeah, and then the Sphinx almost dying like that, but not even close to tears. I was like aw her friend.
::Okay, let's move on. Okay, so I feel like we've kind of covered Crescent City Mm-hmm With, I know, throne of Glass is your, your favorite. So what are the things that like? What are the things we would typically start with, like what you didn't like out of thrown a glass? So is there anything that you didn't like out of throne of glass?
::am I allowed to pick a whole? Did I? Am I allowed to pick a whole book?
::no only because it's my favorite book. Am I allowed to pick a whole book?
::No, only because it's my favorite book Okay, Because the Tower book was a waste of space. Completely disagree. I hated that book. I'm pretty sure that if I would have read this series as it was coming out and I got that book and I had to wait, I would no longer be a fan.
::I absolutely would no longer be a fan I appreciate that.
::Yeah, you cannot. I don't care who you are or how powerful or what you write, you cannot do that. And I'm surprised that she did not get a lot of backlash from that. Well, she might have. I mean, it's been years since. Like now I would have been fucking furious.
::Yeah, well, and I do think that that's part of the reason why tower of dawn gets so much hate is because of how she she set it up as things were actually being published, and I can absolutely empathize, like I can.
::I can totally empathize If she because there's a tandem reading order, right, if she would have published it in the tandem reading order and then just had a cliffhanger, it would have been completely different than literally pulling us out of this world. After like five books, we don't get any of the main characters, yeah, and then you have to wait like another two or three years to get the final book. Like absolutely not. Nope, I would never read anything by her again because I'd never trust her again yeah, no, I can.
::I can absolutely appreciate that so yeah said Tower of Dawn was my favorite book because I didn't read it as it was being published and I never like there's so much Kale hate out there and I never hated him Like I kind of understood where he was coming from throughout the entire series. And I've been told that if I went back and reread it I would have a different opinion and that might be true, but I, you know, I empathize with him a lot and then for him. And gosh, what's her name?
if you're asking about his mate, I have no idea no, his, his mates, irene, no, um, her name starts with an n and she ends up mated to Sartac. I cannot remember her name right now, I, but regardless, I loved their stories and and their journeys and I feel like not so much. Well, I mean you almost have to have. I mean you almost have to have. I mean she could have done it differently for sure, but like, irene's really the one that like saves the day in Kingdom of Ash. Without Irene, shit would still be going on.
::What did she do? I don't remember.
::This is like two years ago when I read it, so I can't remember remember this is like two years ago when I read it, so I can't remember she's the one that ended up, through her healing magic, ended up taking out or I can't remember the final details, but she took out mave.
::I think it was mave or the other one I want to say that it was uh, it was a team effort, like well, obviously it's a team effort. There's like 15 of them to follow I mean manan losing her 13 or 12 or whatever. That yeah I, if I had any feelings, I might have cried on that scene I lost.
::I remember it so vividly because I was working at my mom's house, still in my office there, and I went to take a nap and I was like, well, I'll just listen, I'll listen to the book as I fall asleep. I'll do that every now and again, and it was that scene. I'm like I'm not napping now because I'm fucking sobbing. I was like this was such a bad idea.
::Yeah yeah, I mean their sacrifice was it was sad, but it had a reason, and I think we've talked about this before and we'll always talk about it. Unreasonable deaths piss me the fuck off, and this is coming from me, the person who likes people to die in books and all the crazy things if there is not a purpose for their death and you have somebody die who is a very secondary or important character.
::No, no, absolutely not brother in high mountain court. Oh my god. I don't think I've ever been more pissed about a death than that one. I would be hard-pressed to find one.
::Throne of Glass the father.
::Gavriel, yeah, I was just thinking that. But I mean, even then you could argue that it was his redemption arc for Adian and his mom, Because he was trying to. You know, he thought that he was saving Adian's life.
::No, he was committing suicide because he was stupid.
::You could have stayed alive and fought and maybe other people wouldn't have died. Yeah, no, I don't disagree with you at all. I was, you know, just devil's advocate.
::No, not today, satan, that doesn't work today, not today. It was a stupid death.
::Yeah, I don't disagree.
::There was no rhyme or reason behind it whatsoever.
::Yeah, I don't disagree.
::It's so stupid I didn't like in Throne of Glass that Manon and what's his face that we don't get their story.
::I mean you have a little bit I, but I need.
::I need more.
::That was my I need them to have a book yes, oh my god, that's what I need can you imagine? Like I swear to god if they, if, if sarah's plan for the spinoff is to do an Alita and Lorcan book, I will riot. I need a Manon and Dorian book. I don't give a shit less about Alita and Lorcan.
::I don't remember who that is. You don't even know who that is. I don't know who they are.
::Oh my God, that was so great.
::Yeah, no idea no no, alita and Lorcan.
::Lorcan is like the seven foot tall fae who is part of Rowan's what is it called Cabal, I think is what he referred to them as. So you had, like Lorcan Vaughn, who just fucking disappears, gabriel rowan. I feel like I'm missing. Oh, finris god I love him.
::I remember that name oh, my, like.
::I think finris is my favorite character out of the entire series, with, like, maybe irene being a close second. But anyway, so you have. And a lead was the lord's daughter who he like crippled and kept hidden away.
::You don't remember any of this I don't remember who she is, because that means that they're not important, and I'm going to be really upset if they get a book too.
::Now, okay, I mean I, they were my. It was my least favorite storyline with all the different storylines and that was. That was another thing that, like house of flame and shadow, felt to me like kingdom of ash, where you were following all of these different people. I was really and I think that's part of why people were so disappointed with House of Flame and Shadow because you were having this buildup the same way she did Kingdom of Ash, where you're like following all of these different people to hit an end goal. Like you've got Hypoxia working on the anecdote and you've got Tharion, like talking to the ocean queen and the river queen to try and get people to safety or fight from the water, and then you've got Ithan, who's like trying to band the wolves together. Like you had all of these different storylines that like felt like it was leading up to this gigantic battle, when Ruhn, Lidia, Bryce and Hunt were basically the only people who were in that final battle scene. You see Tarion for a minute when he brings the anecdote broken. You see Ithan for a minute when he brings the bullet, which does make a difference, but that's it.
Where Kingdom of Ash, you have all of these different storylines and they're all going to like to meet this final goal. They all get there. They all have, like, key moments within this huge battle for Terrace and, like you have a lead saving Lorcan on the battlefield on top of the Black Arabian. You've got Gavriel, who sacrifices himself, worth it or not, period whatever. You've got Lysandra, who's you know snow leoparding it up. You've got Manon and the 13th Like I think that's why so many people were disappointed in House of Flame and Shadow is there was so much buildup, like she did in Kingdom of Ash and then a very like anticlimactic battle scene.
::Mm-hmm, now that you say all that, I see it, and that's probably why it was a waste of space.
::Yeah, Because, like I remember messaging a friend of mine, I was like this is giving me Kingdom of Ash fields and I'm terrified.
::And then you had nothing to worry about because there was no follow through. It was just a fake buildup.
::I mean, I think that's why you have so much disappointment in that book and maybe you know I don't. I have such mixed feelings on it. Because part of the reason why I won't I probably won't read Throne of Glass again is because it's so emotionally like rings you out. And I think SJM is trying, or maybe was trying, to find the happy medium of like giving us really great battle scene without sacrificing key players. And I don't know if I would have enjoyed House of Flame and Shadow or at least thought it was better written if more things like that had happened or not. Because part of the reason why I won't reread Throne of Glass is because I can't stand all of the emotional damage. But I think she missed the mark on the happy medium.
::Yeah, the battle scene was a letdown. I mean, I wouldn't even really consider a battle scene, but yeah, not, it was just lightning, and I don't even know what the Regus dude could do what Rigelous yeah, what was his power? He kept like using, like the light force oh okay, I just remember Hunt throwing lightning a lot, yeah, and yelling at Bryce.
::Widowing them I can't remember or teleporting them, yeah, okay, so back to Throne of Glass. I didn't like that.
::Oh sorry, no, go, go ahead. No, no, you. I didn't like that. Her friend died in book one or two. What's her name? Didn't like that. Her friend died in book one or two what's her name?
::but yeah, but it was a reasonable death. There was a reason for it.
::I don't I think it would have took longer for her to become the person that she was to defeat the thing at the end and I'm saying it this way because I don't remember any of their names or anything it would have taken longer to convince her to do the thing, to defeat the thing in the end, but, and that's why she knew she needed to sacrifice herself.
::So it's like a 50-50.
::I struggled with.
::Nehemia's death, so much. I was also pissed because I managed to stay away from the majority of Throne of Glass spoilers. Like I knew Rowan and Aelin got together. Like I knew the 13 died. I think I knew that. No, I didn't know that Aelin was Faye, because when that came out I was like what, so like? So I stayed away from from, like all of the other spoilers, the day before I read Nehemia's scene. It was spoiled and I mean and granted hello, Like this series has been out for a long time. Like I don't expect people put spoiler alerts on Throne of Glass anymore. But I was just like mother fucker. I texted my friend Kayla.
::I was like Nahemia's about to die.
::I was.
::I didn't have any spoilers because I was not in this world and I wasn't looking it up. Yeah, so I know that's a lie. I did look up one spoiler because I don't like love triangles I know that's probably weird, because I just want her to end up with both of them. I don't want her to pick one. So I had to google who she ended up with. And then they're like rowan. I'm like, well, the fuck is rowan, I haven't even met him yet. I'm like, well, the fuck is Rowan, I haven't even met him yet. I'm like, okay, well, let's keep on going, I'm good with this. So that was the only spoiler I did when I started reading book one, because I needed to know who she ended up with, because if I don't like the person that they end up with, I'm not reading, just not. So I was like, okay, there's a third party, just chug along the journey of reading.
::Yeah, yeah. I mean, if we're going to compare, like Throne of Glass to Crescent City, I feel like Throne of Glass was so much better written and I feel like Crescent City had all of the elements to make just as good of a book and it just missed the mark for, for whatever reason, yeah, I agree, and I think I think it's hard after you've written so many books to like try and not make it the same like you were saying, like she's kind of, but not really, and then like hitting that mark.
::But I'm like, if your writing style is that good enough that people love Throne of Glass and ACOTAR, why would you want to change it?
::Yeah.
::Why.
::Yeah, well, I can't remember who said it or if I saw it somewhere or it was something I've listened to. I don't know, but somebody said it felt like she wrote this novel as like a fu to people who said she was just a smut author because her most you've got. The silver flames book came out in 2021 and I think sky and breath came out in 2022, and silver flames is the spiciest she's written and it was. I mean, it's. It's fairly spicy, not in comparison to like what we read now, but like for the genre of romanticcy, it's a very spicy book. And then Sky and Breath had, you know, a couple of really good scenes in it, and I think what she was trying to do in House of Flame and Shadow is almost go back to Throne of Glass, where it was like less spicy, more about the story, more about like the fantasy element than than the smut, and I just I never, I never, considered her like a smut author yeah, whoever she's listening to, she she needs to stop Like, get those people out of your ear.
::They're not good for you, they're lying to you. Just stop, because that's not what she writes. She writes fantasy and anybody who says differently is not people she needs to be listening to. And if that is true, well, sarah J Maas, for doing that to your actual fans, who actually like the shit, and you're listening to the people who don't, which brings us back to a whole other trope of you listening to people who are not fucking important instead of listening to the people who are important. That I hate in series that we've talked about multiple times. Anyways, that's my little rant on that, if it's true. If it's not, then whatever, we're still cool.
::Yeah, but I mean, if it's true, if it's not, then whatever, we're still cool. Yeah, but I mean my favorite series is still avatar, and I know I know so.
::We've said this multiple times, but I just want to say it again for me personally. I read throne of glass for the storyline, because it's great best mic drop scene ever at the lake where she's like I told you I was writing letters Perfect. You read ACOTAR for the love story. Yeah you do.
::I don't disagree with that. I think I love what SJM is doing in ACOTAR with the overarching plot, with like the queens and you have this god at the lake, and like there's clearly other things happening within that world with like you get snippets of in each book, and I'm finding that that's what I really love is like the overarching plot, but give me like the meat and potatoes of the relationship in the story, and I mean a court of mist and fury is just so beautifully done and that's book two right.
Yeah, yeah, book one was horrible. I mean, I, I like book one I think you need. But basically I think, if you're new going into this series and hopefully you're not because we've spoiled like everything, but if someone's new going into the akatar series, I don't know, I I feel like experiencing it without context is the best, is the best way to do it which is what happened to me yeah but I never liked tamlin to begin with.
::I liked his friend. I was like, oh, I want her to be the friend, not tamlin, before we met rossanne, right? So everyone's like, oh, tam, tamlin, tamlin. I'm like not this piece of shit, like no, he's not strong enough for her, like it's not going to work. I do agree, though, that you have to read it was. It had that retelling of Beauty and the Beast which doesn't fit the rest of the series. I feel like the tone from A Court of Thorn and Roses is way different than the rest of the next books, completely different tone, and I think that was part of the problem is it didn't, at least with throne of glass, it still carried over into the rest of the series Everything that happened in book one. The only thing that carries over from book one is that we hate Tamlin and Tamlin's a piece of shit. I feel like that's the only thing.
::No, because you, you you're introduced to Amarantha, who is from King Highburn's army. Is that the chick? That's in the mountain uh, yeah is under the mountain so you're introduced to the overall arching plot through amarantha okay and I think you have to have and, and I mean I mean akatar is the, or you know, a Court of Thorns and Roses is the smallest book in the series, except for the novella and I feel like you need, you need that foundation, you know, to understand the rest.
::Yeah, you know what? I think I'm going to take it back. I think I'm going to take my statement back about Tamlin being a piece of shit, because it's not his fault that he was written that way. I think my bias is it. It's not necessarily a love triangle, but I don't like when I've wasted a whole book and you've made me believe that this is the main love interest and then it's not. So I'm blaming him for things. It's not his fault. Then how, what? How do I love? Yes, fucking Google shit. She no, no, I Googled it and I knew so I was fine. I didn't Google that shit with a throne of glass, because Well, that's not fair.
::I didn't google that shit with a throne of glass because Well, that's not fair, I don't care.
::I don't know what to tell you on that one. There was no love triangle-esque feelings. Right, there was nothing. It was he takes her the bride. They're living together.
I don't even know if they kiss or make out or do anything, but I'm like there's no, there was never any indication that there was somebody else In Throne of Glass. There is a clear indication of there is a triangle because there are two guys and one girl, and I need to know that then. And then when we're going and we meet his friend like I know his friend's not going to be the one, like it's Tamlin he meet his friend. Like I know his friend's not going to be the one Like it's Tamlin, he's the main guy, he's the one that's been there from the beginning. And then you're like 80% of the way the book is like oh surprise, not not it. That's probably why I hate that book so much. So, as I said, let me take my statement back. It's not Tamlin's fault that he was written that way. He thought that he actually he wasn't really in love with her, he was just using her. So I guess that does make it. Well, I can't say that because I'm a dark romance reader.
::So no, I do think that Tamlin loves, not loved, loves Feyre.
::Okay.
::I think because of how he lost his family and just being basically like a total dick, he tried to suffocate her, or well, he tried to protect her and that ended up suffocating her. Just because someone loves you in a in the way that doesn't is it isn't in alignment with who you are it doesn't mean they love you any less yeah, it's just not a good fit.
Rhysand, I do think, loves her more, but he also gave her the space to explore her powers, to become strong on her own. And I think, tamlin I don't really think that Tamlin changes a whole lot between book one and book two. It's just Feyre changed so much through Under the Mountain that she no longer needed Tamlin's protection, tamlin's cage, essentially where book one she did need it. Not only was she human in the fey realm, but like she was experiencing like safety for the first time in her life. And then when she puts herself in through under the mountain, she goes through all that, realizes like hey, I'm a badass bitch. Like she comes out of that knowing she no longer needs to be coddled and that she doesn't need that safety. She would prefer to to stay in that warrior heart type of personality and he just won't allow it, partly due, I think, because of trauma in his past, but also partly because he saw her be tortured and he's not going to do anything about it.
::Yeah, I just want to throw out that in all of her series she has this knack for repetitiveness. So, nesta, it was the stairs, bryce it was the caves, and then in court it's the going to the. Didn't they go to the Some kind of border thing? A lot, pretty sure in Court of Thorn and Roses she goes with the guy, with Tamlin's friend. They go through the woods and they go to like a border and there's a lot of fights at the border. Am I making that up?
::Probably that up, probably, I'm probably making that up they, I mean they, they do a lot, I mean they go a lot of like they go to. In book two, resand sends her to the middle to get her own engagement ring, you know. But they also traveled to the summer court. At one point they I can't remember, I can't remember where they were traveling, where reese sand was attacked, I think I don't mean I think another problem that I had with akatar was I feel like they made enemies when they didn't need to make enemies.
::So I distinctly remember having that feeling Like one example is when they go to one of the courts, instead of just talking to them, they try and break into something and then they make an enemy. And then I think they did something else where they like betrayed somebody and I'm like you're making more enemies for yourself where, thrown a glass, you think somebody is an enemy but they're really not.
::And she had a way of bringing everybody together because she essentially asked for help yeah, but I think part of the reason brisan doesn't like he basically takes things into his own hands and also makes enemies by doing that, uh is he doesn't trust anybody except for his inner circle, because the last time he trusted someone in another court was tamlin, and that's how his mother and sister were decapitated okay, good point, you have a good point.
And then when Morgan, who he's really close with, is supposed to be betrothed to Eris in the Autumn Court, she gets brutalized.
::Mm-hmm.
::So I think his, I feel like his lack, because this is what bothered, and I've said this before. Rhysand works and trusts his inner circle with everything. Aelin is just as conniving as Rhysand, except doesn't trust anybody, except for the letters she sends to people who, like were essentially enemies. But she's not telling her trusted people what's happening she told them she told them she was writing letters.
::That is not explaining anything I, but that's just her personality. I mean, you got all of them talking shit to her and she's like, okay, fine, I'm, I'm hearing you, let me go write some letters and she does. I think this is going to be a contention between us forever, because I think that is great.
::I mean, I think Aelin is incredibly smart and I like that is one of the things I loved about her. But it's like we talked about in the, in the, in the, what we like in a main female character episode. I also want to see a female character comfortable, being vulnerable with her circle and she's not, and that's nothing against her.
Like again, I think you're dealing with a lot of trauma. You're dealing with a lot of trauma. You're dealing with someone who is hyper-independent and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the next ACOTAR book is a Nesta book, if SJM writes Nesta similarly to Aelin, because she's already doing it. Nesta's already gone behind the back of the people you know she's in her circle with and given Bryce the mask.
::I mean, is that really going behind people's back? It's her mask. She can do whatever the fuck she wants with it. It's her power.
::Maybe not like I mean. It's not like she had time to like sit down and have a meeting about it, but like she's certainly going against the wishes of you know these people Not that her and these people are all that close, but I mean but is she? I mean she did at the time. She didn't know what Bryce was going to do with it.
::I think that's. I see what you're saying, but then that's just going to make me not ACOTAR more more if she can't make own decisions about her own power without having to talk to the big bad, the big baddie Right Like.
::No, I don't, I don't. I think SJM, I don't know. Sjm needs to be very careful with Nesta's character, because she's my favorite, and so is Cassian.
::So I'm just curious to see where she's leading with all of this. Yeah, I'll keep reading when things are complete. I will not read incomplete things. That's. The only reason why we read Crescent City Is because Bryson Hunt's story is complete, and I say in quotations because, absolutely not, just no.
Hello listeners, thank you so much for hanging out with us today on part one of discussing Sarah J Moss. If you're curious to see how the conversation continues, please join us next week for part two. Say thank you, thank you. Thank you for joining us on the journey into the shadows of love, where dark romance stories come to light.
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::This is Mistie.
::And Jenn.
::Signing off from Bones of the Storie.
Transcribed by https://podium.page
